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Do babies go to heaven?

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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  CLER on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:19 am

methodikal wrote:

OoOooO Sounds like a good segway to another topic. Anyone wna start it? LoL What a Face

yup, bring that topic outside of this topic, shoo shoo! lol. let's stay on topic folks! Ima get confused.

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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  KuyaAirl on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:21 am

CLER wrote:
methodikal wrote:

OoOooO Sounds like a good segway to another topic. Anyone wna start it? LoL What a Face

yup, bring that topic outside of this topic, shoo shoo! lol. let's stay on topic folks! Ima get confused.


Sori about that Ate....Cuz MArk mentioned something about the JEws that I just wanted to clarify...SORI!!!! STICK TO TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  Mark on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:26 am

KuyaAirl wrote:
Mark wrote:Earl that is a great verse and it answers some questions. I think it sums it up that God does have a special place in his heart for children. Just like God has a special place in his heart for the Jews. The Jews don't even believe in Jesus Christ and they are to be saved no matter what. So just like the Jews I too believe that children/infants do have a special place God's heart and they are saved.


Bro...Very important,,,Although the Jews are God's chosen people, not all Jews will enter the Kingdom of God because of some constant rebelling against God and rejecting Christ....Israel as a whole will be saved as a nation in the very End when the Messiah(Jesus) returns....but the decision to come to Christ is still an individual thing.....Israel will call out to God for repentance and for the Messiah to return tHank God there are Christian Jews today who believe in Yeshua HaMashiach(Jesus Christ) and they are saved but if a Jew were to die today without Christ, he or she will be sent to Hell....We are saved only by grace and faith in Jesus Christ...but it doesnt matter what the race is.....



Romans 10: 12 There is no difference between Jew and Greek, because they all have the same Lord, who gives richly to all who call on him.

Earl I agree with you but I was just making a point that certain people have a special place in God's heart. Like you said not all Jews go to heaven but they have that special place in his heart. Just like the verse you quoted.
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  KuyaAirl on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:29 am

Mark wrote:
KuyaAirl wrote:
Mark wrote:Earl that is a great verse and it answers some questions. I think it sums it up that God does have a special place in his heart for children. Just like God has a special place in his heart for the Jews. The Jews don't even believe in Jesus Christ and they are to be saved no matter what. So just like the Jews I too believe that children/infants do have a special place God's heart and they are saved.


Bro...Very important,,,Although the Jews are God's chosen people, not all Jews will enter the Kingdom of God because of some constant rebelling against God and rejecting Christ....Israel as a whole will be saved as a nation in the very End when the Messiah(Jesus) returns....but the decision to come to Christ is still an individual thing.....Israel will call out to God for repentance and for the Messiah to return tHank God there are Christian Jews today who believe in Yeshua HaMashiach(Jesus Christ) and they are saved but if a Jew were to die today without Christ, he or she will be sent to Hell....We are saved only by grace and faith in Jesus Christ...but it doesnt matter what the race is.....



Romans 10: 12 There is no difference between Jew and Greek, because they all have the same Lord, who gives richly to all who call on him.

Earl I agree with you but I was just making a point that certain people have a special place in God's heart. Like you said not all Jews go to heaven but they have that special place in his heart. Just like the verse you quoted.

MARK YOURE A BLESSING!!!!!!! the reason why i mentioned what i mentioned is that i forgot to mention it to you last FRiday(MAde you dizzY huh?)
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  joshcalu on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:34 am

Sooo... Can we all agree that Mark has a special place in God's heart... being that he's a big baby? Razz

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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  KuyaAirl on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:35 am

joshcalu wrote:Sooo... Can we all agree that Mark has a special place in God's heart... being that he's a big baby? Razz


AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Very Happy JUST KIDDING!!!!!
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  CLER on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:36 am

Hmm ok. We’re going kinda far folks, as Raf said… this is something hard to decipher with our own little minds, we need the Bible to understand this.

First, who gets to go to heaven? Those people who repent and put their faith in Christ. How does that work? Through the work of Christ on the cross. What happens when we get saved? We immediately become God’s children (we inherit everything from Him) and when this happens, His righteousness is imputed in us. Remember, there is none good, but God (Matthew 19 and Psalm 5 I think); Rom. 3:23, Is. 64:6.

Some folks are saying why can’t babies go to heaven when they haven’t done anything wrong? Well, do people go to hell because they have sinned or because they are sinners? It’s the latter. What do I mean? Ever heard of the original sin? Look it up. Also check Romans 3, follow the cross reference to Psalm. Since the fall of man (Adam sinning), it has caused spiritual and physical death, we are all sinful by nature (imputed sin). I linked a song and lyrics by Shai Linne breaking down this topic. Read the lyrics as you listen. (Wanna hear the album? Listen to his album The Atonement, lyrics can be found here: http://lyricaltheology.blogspot.com/)

Lyrics
Music: In Adam All Die

So let’s put those things together. When Adam sinned, sin was imputed in all of us, meaning we are born into sin. We’re not sinners because we’ve sinned, but we’ve sinned because we are sinners. Ever heard of the term, Jesus as the last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45?) He is the last Adam because through His work on the cross… His righteousness can be imputed in us if we repent and put our faith in Him.

Wooh! This was a lot of work to kinda explain it, but I think it’s important to set that foundation before we hit the issue of babies going to heaven. Therefore, if all have sinned, and no sinner can go to heaven… can babies go to heaven?
Does God punish those who don’t qualify for his plan of redemption? He should because He is a holy God!

As for the other verses that are used, let’s keep in mind that Bible cannot contradict itself. Make sure they are in proper context and we’re not reading into it that we’re giving extra interpretation… (eisegesis! : the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas). But keep on giving those verses and let’s examine it.

If you need clarifications, let me know. If I’m wrong on anything, let me know. Thanks mucho!

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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  methodikal on Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:02 am

Claire if thats the case, then what I think you are saying is that babies can go to Hell. But the only way to be forgiven of sin is to confess, and repent from your sinful ways...how can a baby, not knowing he/she is a sinner, admit and then repent from sinning, when the baby barely knows how to open its eyes?
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  CLER on Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:08 am

methodikal wrote:Claire if thats the case, then what I think you are saying is that babies can go to Hell. But the only way to be forgiven of sin is to confess, and repent from your sinful ways...how can a baby, not knowing he/she is a sinner, admit and then repent from sinning, when the baby barely knows how to open its eyes?

good question. how about those people who have never heard of the Gospel and die? They may not know their sinful ways so they can't repent from it. Where do they go according to the Scripture?

Alrighty, it's late. I'm tired and I'll catch up tomorrow. Razz

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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  Mark on Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:25 am

KuyaAirl wrote:
joshcalu wrote:Sooo... Can we all agree that Mark has a special place in God's heart... being that he's a big baby? Razz


AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Very Happy JUST KIDDING!!!!!

I Love you guys! And yes I have a special place in God's heart. LOL
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  jeffrocks on Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:39 am

i won't reply too much because cler and I kinda joined forces with her answer.

Just one thing to add on to cler's statement. Cler said:

Does God punish those who don’t qualify for his plan of redemption? He should because He is a holy God!

YES, he should because he's holy! Cler made a good point that no one is innocent. EVERYONE is born into sin because of the inheritance of original sin (yes, ONE sin is all it took, shows how serious God is about sin). Whether they come from a celebrity family to someone being born in the middle of 'boing-go boing-go", and even with mental disabilities. The bible is clear on the fact that 'no one is good, no not one.' It doesn't matter if you've never heard of the bible, or Jesus, or never prayed the sinner's prayer. Humans... including babies.. are sinners by nature (Rom 5:12)

Ever had a baby grab your necklace or earing? You will see them grab for it with all their might. We don't think nothing of it because we are stronger than the baby and are able to grap their hands or pull their arms back. But what if that baby had the strength of 25 men? You can bet the baby would rip off your head to get that necklace and walk over your dead body with no remorse. Ok that analogy may not have been the best... maybe this video will convince you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5ALIL7T764

But I believe God extends his grace to those who can't fully take in his plan of redemption. That example of David in 2 Sam 12ish is one of the supporting verses that I find applicable.

I think John Piper said it best:

“God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them
because, although they are sinful, in His mercy He desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are
sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.”

Also John MacArthur:

“We cannot say that babies who die go to Heaven because they are ‘sinless’. Rather, babies who die go to Heaven because God is gracious… they are saved by the only means that anyone is saved: God’s grace."
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  methodikal on Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:58 pm

jeffrocks wrote:i won't reply too much because cler and I kinda joined forces with her answer.

Just one thing to add on to cler's statement. Cler said:

Does God punish those who don’t qualify for his plan of redemption? He should because He is a holy God!

...

But I believe God extends his grace to those who can't fully take in his plan of redemption. That example of David in 2 Sam 12ish is one of the supporting verses that I find applicable.

I think John Piper said it best:

“God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them
because, although they are sinful, in His mercy He desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are
sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.”

Also John MacArthur:

“We cannot say that babies who die go to Heaven because they are ‘sinless’. Rather, babies who die go to Heaven because God is gracious… they are saved by the only means that anyone is saved: God’s grace."

Oh okay...so babies are not "pure" but still go to Heaven...jz wanted to make that clear. I wish I was Benjamin Button. PuHAHahhahah!!
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  methodikal on Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:24 pm

However, I do recall something in my class regarding babies/children mentioned in the Didache. I'm gna look it up and see if I can find it...From what I recall, the early church leaders saw children as innocent...I may be wrong tho...gna dig. study
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  CLER on Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:30 pm

jeffrocks wrote:i won't reply too much because cler and I kinda joined forces with her answer.

Just one thing to add on to cler's statement. Cler said:

Does God punish those who don’t qualify for his plan of redemption? He should because He is a holy God!

YES, he should because he's holy! Cler made a good point that no one is innocent. EVERYONE is born into sin because of the inheritance of original sin (yes, ONE sin is all it took, shows how serious God is about sin). Whether they come from a celebrity family to someone being born in the middle of 'boing-go boing-go", and even with mental disabilities. The bible is clear on the fact that 'no one is good, no not one.' It doesn't matter if you've never heard of the bible, or Jesus, or never prayed the sinner's prayer. Humans... including babies.. are sinners by nature (Rom 5:12)

Ever had a baby grab your necklace or earing? You will see them grab for it with all their might. We don't think nothing of it because we are stronger than the baby and are able to grap their hands or pull their arms back. But what if that baby had the strength of 25 men? You can bet the baby would rip off your head to get that necklace and walk over your dead body with no remorse. Ok that analogy may not have been the best... maybe this video will convince you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5ALIL7T764

But I believe God extends his grace to those who can't fully take in his plan of redemption. That example of David in 2 Sam 12ish is one of the supporting verses that I find applicable.

I think John Piper said it best:

“God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them
because, although they are sinful, in His mercy He desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are
sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.”

Also John MacArthur:

“We cannot say that babies who die go to Heaven because they are ‘sinless’. Rather, babies who die go to Heaven because God is gracious… they are saved by the only means that anyone is saved: God’s grace."


We joined forces? Um that's blasphemy yo! tongue
But yea what he said, thanks.

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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  KuyaAirl on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:41 pm

CLER wrote:
jeffrocks wrote:i won't reply too much because cler and I kinda joined forces with her answer.

Just one thing to add on to cler's statement. Cler said:

Does God punish those who don’t qualify for his plan of redemption? He should because He is a holy God!

YES, he should because he's holy! Cler made a good point that no one is innocent. EVERYONE is born into sin because of the inheritance of original sin (yes, ONE sin is all it took, shows how serious God is about sin). Whether they come from a celebrity family to someone being born in the middle of 'boing-go boing-go", and even with mental disabilities. The bible is clear on the fact that 'no one is good, no not one.' It doesn't matter if you've never heard of the bible, or Jesus, or never prayed the sinner's prayer. Humans... including babies.. are sinners by nature (Rom 5:12)

Ever had a baby grab your necklace or earing? You will see them grab for it with all their might. We don't think nothing of it because we are stronger than the baby and are able to grap their hands or pull their arms back. But what if that baby had the strength of 25 men? You can bet the baby would rip off your head to get that necklace and walk over your dead body with no remorse. Ok that analogy may not have been the best... maybe this video will convince you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5ALIL7T764

But I believe God extends his grace to those who can't fully take in his plan of redemption. That example of David in 2 Sam 12ish is one of the supporting verses that I find applicable.

I think John Piper said it best:

“God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them
because, although they are sinful, in His mercy He desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are
sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.”

Also John MacArthur:

“We cannot say that babies who die go to Heaven because they are ‘sinless’. Rather, babies who die go to Heaven because God is gracious… they are saved by the only means that anyone is saved: God’s grace."


We joined forces? Um that's blasphemy yo! tongue
But yea what he said, thanks.



There you Go!!!! Its all on the Grace Of God...............

AFter all, all babies are conceived in sin....I DONT MEAN BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK OR ADULTERY ALTHOUGH SOME ARE A PRODUCT OF THESE TWO, BUT OVERALL BECAUSE ALL BABIES CARRY THE BLOODLINE OF aDAM,,,tHEY ARE CONCEIVED IN sIN..iN THAT THEY HAVE A sINFUL NATURE

Psalm 51: 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Yet God is gracious,,,he saves babies all by his grace...His Grace aND gRACE aLONE!!!!...
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  jeffrocks on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:47 pm

methodikal wrote:Oh okay...so babies are not "pure" but still go to Heaven...jz wanted to make that clear.

they go to heaven only by God's grace. Every single human being is not 'pure'. No one is innocent.

If you want to make a case of innocence, I guess you can say God see's babies as innocent because they are not able to comprehend salvation, but that doesn't mean they are sinless. Babies are still sinners and should deserve eternal wrath just like everyone that descended from Adam. It is because God is so full of grace that he would even save them, or anyone for that matter.
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  Mark on Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:28 pm

jeffrocks wrote:It is because God is so full of grace that he would even save them, or anyone for that matter.

I definitely agree with you Jeff and I see it the same way. However, that last comment would make some people question if they even need God at all. Some people might say if he is so full of grace then he will save me no matter what. Even if I believe in him or not. I don't see it that way but I am just saying that if you said that to a non believer then they would in turn say that to you. But then again I guess that is a whole different topic. I do understand that we are talking about infants, I just wanted to throw that out there.

I believe what the word says and the verses that Earl and Mawi provided answered this question for me. God is full of grace and all powerful. He has the right and power to choose who he wants to be saved no matter what. Remember he gave his only son to die for our sins. We owe him, God does not owe us.

methodikal wrote:Oh okay...so babies are not "pure" but still go to Heaven...jz wanted to make that clear. I wish I was Benjamin Button. PuHAHahhahah!!

My response is basically just like Jeff's to this Matt. No matter who we are and no matter what we do we are still sinners. Even after we have been baptized by the holy spirit and accept God as our savior we are still sinners. God died for our sins so we are no longer slaves to sin. We are now free from sin but we are still sinners. We can still sin but we are no longer bound to sinning. That is why believers feel guilty when we sin and we ask for forgiveness because we know that it is wrong. But even though we are still sinner's God will still save us as long as we have faith in him because of his grace. I know what I typed down here contradicts what I typed after their but we are talking about infants up there. Just my thoughts. Please correct anything I have said if it contradicts the Bible. This is all part of learning about the word of God
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  CLER on Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:03 am

jeffrocks wrote:
methodikal wrote:Oh okay...so babies are not "pure" but still go to Heaven...jz wanted to make that clear.

they go to heaven only by God's grace. Every single human being is not 'pure'. No one is innocent.

If you want to make a case of innocence, I guess you can say God see's babies as innocent because they are not able to comprehend salvation, but that doesn't mean they are sinless. Babies are still sinners and should deserve eternal wrath just like everyone that descended from Adam. It is because God is so full of grace that he would even save them, or anyone for that matter.

pla-dow!!!

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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  CLER on Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:17 am

Mark wrote:
jeffrocks wrote:It is because God is so full of grace that he would even save them, or anyone for that matter.

I definitely agree with you Jeff and I see it the same way. However, that last comment would make some people question if they even need God at all. Some people might say if he is so full of grace then he will save me no matter what. Even if I believe in him or not. I don't see it that way but I am just saying that if you said that to a non believer then they would in turn say that to you. But then again I guess that is a whole different topic. I do understand that we are talking about infants, I just wanted to throw that out there.

Then those people need to understand what grace is all about. Because if they think they can do anything and they will still receive God's grace, they're making a mistake. Remember, God is love, but he is wrath too.


[/quote]I believe what the word says and the verses that Earl and Mawi provided answered this question for me. God is full of grace and all powerful. He has the right and power to choose who he wants to be saved no matter what. Remember he gave his only son to die for our sins. We owe him, God does not owe us.[/quote]


As for the verses posted... it'd be good to break that down coz I'm not comfortable to how that's being used to back up the answers to the infant question. I can't really do it right now, (at work), but a quick one. Like for that Matthew verse when Jesus took a child and addressed something. What was the whole context of that. What was happening before that and after that. Check the cross reference in your Bible. Was he literally talking about children or what?
BTW, I don't know the answers. We're exploring this together.

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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  CLER on Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:36 am

to add to that video that jeff posted about the baby. watch this:
Total depravity at its finest

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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  Mark on Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:12 am

Cler I wasn't talking about that quote. I was talking about the one that Mawi put and Earl. I guess for me those verses shows God's mercy, him knowing the right thing to do, and how children have a special place in his heart. There is no exact verse that will answer the question that was asked but like I said the verses they put up answered it for me to an extent. The pastor's that Jeff quoted didn't have exact verses that they quoted even though I agree with them. We are putting our own thoughts and even though it might sound right doesn't mean they are. I am probably more wrong than right but like everyone has said we have to look at what the Bible says and not what we want it to say. So in the end I can only conclude the answer as close to how the Bible answers the question.
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  CLER on Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:00 am

Mark wrote:Cler I wasn't talking about that quote. I was talking about the one that Mawi put and Earl. I guess for me those verses shows God's mercy, him knowing the right thing to do, and how children have a special place in his heart. There is no exact verse that will answer the question that was asked but like I said the verses they put up answered it for me to an extent. The pastor's that Jeff quoted didn't have exact verses that they quoted even though I agree with them. We are putting our own thoughts and even though it might sound right doesn't mean they are. I am probably more wrong than right but like everyone has said we have to look at what the Bible says and not what we want it to say. So in the end I can only conclude the answer as close to how the Bible answers the question.

thanks for the clarification mark. as for the comment i put on bold, yes it's true that exact verses weren't quoted, but if you read the Bible and the other verses that jeff and i quoted... what they were saying actually line up to it. There's a difference of someone having some kind of ideology that doesn't line up with the Bible and with someone who bases their ideology from the Bible. This isn't to attack what you said, just clarifying things. But yes it's good that in the end... it is what the Bible says that will prevail. Very Happy

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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  Mark on Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:05 am

Oh I know you weren't attacking me Cler. I was just trying to clarify. That is why talking through writing is hard. There can be some misunderstandings.
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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  CLER on Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:18 am

Mark wrote:Oh I know you weren't attacking me Cler. I was just trying to clarify. That is why talking through writing is hard. There can be some misunderstandings.

that's what the those little faces are for!!! heheh Very Happy Cool Laughing Razz bounce cheers Basketball sunny lol!

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Re: Do babies go to heaven?

Post  Mark on Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:24 am

CLER wrote:
Mark wrote:Oh I know you weren't attacking me Cler. I was just trying to clarify. That is why talking through writing is hard. There can be some misunderstandings.

that's what the those little faces are for!!! heheh Very Happy Cool Laughing Razz bounce cheers Basketball sunny lol!

LOL! I see the faces Very Happy . Cler try to answer that new topic I just put up. I don't have anything for it. Please. Thanks Laughing
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