Log in

I forgot my password

Latest topics
» what happened here?
Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:39 pm by Rosielle Manuel

» Summer Events... Details Inside.
Wed May 13, 2009 3:38 am by Mawi

» God imaginary? I don't think so.
Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:23 am by Mawi

» Don’t all religions lead to the same God?
Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:12 pm by CLER

» Why study theology?
Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:01 pm by CLER

» Men... saving it for marriage
Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:35 pm by CLER

» Ladies... good read
Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:32 pm by CLER

» Need Financial Blessings
Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:49 pm by Sarge

» SF Pillow Fight Pix and Warrior's Game Pix are Up!!
Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:17 am by methodikal

December 2018
SunMonTueWedThuFriSat
      1
2345678
9101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
3031     

Calendar Calendar

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search


Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Go down

Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  Mark on Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:20 am

Ok so this was brought up in the topic about infants being saved or not. Do people in third world countries, remote areas of the world, and those who never hear about God go to hell? Thanks! I think most of us agree that they still do because they do not believe in God. But the argument was what makes infants different from people who never get to hear about him. There was an argument that they are in a sense both innocent so they are all saved. Thanks!
avatar
Mark

Posts : 33
Join date : 2009-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  Mawi on Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:44 pm

This is what I found.. Romans 1:18-20 says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

I feel like, even if you've never heard about His word, you should know what's right and wrong (10 commandments). I mean, its also common sense that it's not good to lie, cheat, etc..
avatar
Mawi

Posts : 33
Join date : 2009-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  Mark on Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:08 pm

Mawi wrote:This is what I found.. Romans 1:18-20 says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

I feel like, even if you've never heard about His word, you should know what's right and wrong (10 commandments). I mean, its also common sense that it's not good to lie, cheat, etc..

Thanks Mawi, Anyone Else? Please more scriptures.
avatar
Mark

Posts : 33
Join date : 2009-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  methodikal on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:36 pm

Here is something that Jeff put in the baby question...

jeffrocks wrote: The bible is clear on the fact that 'no one is good, no not one.' It doesn't matter if you've never heard of the bible, or Jesus, or never prayed the sinner's prayer. Humans... including babies.. are sinners by nature (Rom 5:12)
avatar
methodikal
Admin

Posts : 97
Join date : 2009-01-23
Age : 35
Location : San Jose, CA

View user profile http://ccccollegetalk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  Mark on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:16 am

methodikal wrote:Here is something that Jeff put in the baby question...

jeffrocks wrote: The bible is clear on the fact that 'no one is good, no not one.' It doesn't matter if you've never heard of the bible, or Jesus, or never prayed the sinner's prayer. Humans... including babies.. are sinners by nature (Rom 5:12)

Thanks Matt! But correct me if I am wrong but I think Jeff concluded from what he point that infants do go to heaven because of God's grace and God doing the right thing. Now isn't it an argument to say that people that never heard about him are also "innocent", not innocent in a sense of not being sinners but innocent for not even knowing about God. So in return can it be argued that people that have never heard God saved too? Because by God's grace he will save them and God doing the right thing is to save them? Like I said I am still learning so much and I have been going back and forth on this. I still believe that people that don't hear about him will still go to hell because the Bible says in John 14:6, where Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life -- no one can come to the Father except through Me." I was just throwing those questions out because I know others have them as well.
avatar
Mark

Posts : 33
Join date : 2009-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  CLER on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:32 am

Mark wrote:
methodikal wrote:Here is something that Jeff put in the baby question...

jeffrocks wrote: The bible is clear on the fact that 'no one is good, no not one.' It doesn't matter if you've never heard of the bible, or Jesus, or never prayed the sinner's prayer. Humans... including babies.. are sinners by nature (Rom 5:12)

Thanks Matt! But correct me if I am wrong but I think Jeff concluded from what he point that infants do go to heaven because of God's grace and God doing the right thing. Now isn't it an argument to say that people that never heard about him are also "innocent", not innocent in a sense of not being sinners but innocent for not even knowing about God. So in return can it be argued that people that have never heard God saved too? Because by God's grace he will save them and God doing the right thing is to save them? Like I said I am still learning so much and I have been going back and forth on this. I still believe that people that don't hear about him will still go to hell because the Bible says in John 14:6, where Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life -- no one can come to the Father except through Me." I was just throwing those questions out because I know others have them as well.

Just keep in mind, people don't go to hell because they've never heard of the Gospel but because they have broken God's law. Why would God let someone who is unholy in heaven? I think people will keep on asking these questions because they don't understand the basic thing which is... God is a holy God, we are born sinners, etc. (refer to the babies post). But yes Mark, you are right on track.

CLER

Posts : 50
Join date : 2009-01-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  Mark on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:47 am

Thanks Cler, I definitely agree with you and I do understand that people don't go to hell because we don't hear God, it is because we are sinners. We are not worthy to be saved but because of God's mercy and grace we are through Jesus Christ. I was just throwing those questions out because can't it be argued that people who have never heard God will still be saved because of his grace? Just like infants? Like you said we will never know the true answer to these questions but the scriptures also back up that he is a merciful God full of Grace. He in the end can choose what he wants to do just like if you believe in the Elect. God choose us and it was his choice to save us. So can we also say that God either way can do what he wants because he is God. I don't believe that this contradicts the Bible because we found scriptures that show that he is a Graceful God. We can refer back to the infant topic and apply what we concluded in that topic to this. In the end God will do the right thing and it is through God's Grace that those who have never heard about God are still saved? I am so confused guys. scratch
avatar
Mark

Posts : 33
Join date : 2009-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  Mawi on Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:03 am

I got this thing from a site..

"What About People Who Never Heard About Jesus?

I’ve been told there are three kinds of people in this world: those who can count and those who can’t.

But someone else said, “The three kinds of people in this world are those who make things happen; those who watch things happen; and those who ask, ‘What just happened?’”

But then I was told, “No, here are the three kinds of people: The have’s, the have-not’s, and the have-not-paid-for-what-they-have’s” (Earl Wilson).

But then along came Edward A. Murphy, Jr., the maker of “Murphy’s Law,” and he said, “No, there are two kinds of people in this world, those who divide people into two types, and those who don’t.”

I agree with Murphy that there are just two kinds of people in this world. And the two kinds are not the religionists versus the atheists. It is not the moral versus the immoral. Or the church-going, versus the church-avoiding, the wealthy versus the homeless, the young versus the old, the married versus the single...

It is those too good to need mercy versus those too wise to think they don’t. It it is those who say, “I can do it!” versus those who say, “God already did for what I could have never done!”

Would God Punish People Who Never Heard the Gospel?

You, I, and every human walking planet earth stands in one of these two camps. But no matter which camp we are in, you’ve probably entertained a question like this before: “How could God punish people who never heard the gospel before? Like those people on far off islands who will never hear a missionary tell them about Jesus—how could God still be righteous and send them to hell?”

Paul the Apostle tackled a very similar question in Romans 9. Here is how it came up: Paul listed the incredible advantages the Jew had over every other nation: They were adopted as God's child, witnessed God's burning glory enveloping the temple, received God’s promise that He would never forsake them and that He would be their God, given the Ten Commandments along with 603 other laws to show them how to live to please God, were provided with the entire temple service of priests and sacrifices where people could approach God and be forgiven of their sins, were promised huge blessings beyond any other nation, were in the line of Abraham, and to top it all off, they had the claim that Jesus Christ physically came from their own line (Rom 9:4-5).

But in spite of all these advantages, when God finally sent Jesus to save them from their sins, the Jews rejected him. But why? Why did they reject Jesus, the fullest revelation of God's Word? Naturally someone might question the validity of God's faithfulness, since after all, of all people these Israelites were the Navy Seals of religion (Rom 9:6). If anyone was going to receive Jesus as the Messiah, they would!

Yet though the Israelites stared Jesus in the face and watched miracle after miracle, they screamed "Crucify Him!" instead of "All hail the King!" Why? They failed to see their need for mercy. Instead of trusting Christ, God's gift of salvation, they trusted their religion. All those blessings of the temple, and promises, and lineage that were meant to turn them to Christ, ended up becoming replacements of Christ. What was supposed to prepare them for the Messiah became the sharp reed upon which they leaned. They didn't want Jesus. They found their security in religion. The very blessings meant to help them became their downfall.

From this story we encounter a powerful reality: Being forgiven of your sins, does not depend on your religious commitment. Find the most religious people on earth and you will find proud people trusting their liturgy, prayers, rituals, and songs to get God to owe them something. But this puts the burden of being forgiven on the sinner and his works instead of on God and His mercy.

So Paul corrects this erroneous thinking with a simple statement: "It is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants" (Rom 9:Cool. Paul is saying that being a child of an Israelite and all the laws and promises and temple service that come with that won't save you. Then what does? Being a child of the promise! What promise? The promise that God would bless the world through Abraham's descendant. That descendant is none other than Jesus Christ (Gal 3:16).

All the religion and church attendance and Christian lingo in the world minus Jesus will do nothing but give a person a false sense of security, like running into a burning building in a fire coat made of Siran wrap. But Jesus Christ alone is ready not only to remove your sins and wash away your guilt, but to give you His righteousness and perfection, so that you too can be a child of the promise. "



Also, here's 2 more links if you want to read them..
http://brotherjosh.blogspot.com/2006/04/what-of-those-who-havent-heard-part-1.html
http://brotherjosh.blogspot.com/2006/04/part-2-what-of-those-who-havent-heard.html


maybe it'll help understand it more. its one of those topics that we'll never really understand.
avatar
Mawi

Posts : 33
Join date : 2009-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  methodikal on Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:16 am

Mark wrote:...God choose us and it was his choice to save us. So can we also say that God either way can do what he wants because he is God. I don't believe that this contradicts the Bible because we found scriptures that show that he is a Graceful God. We can refer back to the infant topic and apply what we concluded in that topic to this. In the end God will do the right thing and it is through God's Grace that those who have never heard about God are still saved? I am so confused guys. scratch

But there is one distinct trait that grown ups have that babies dont. A developed mind. Not brain, but mind. They are conscious of what is right and wrong. Babies dont have that consciousness yet. I believe that is why God has mercy on the babies.

On another note, I do see what you are saying Mark. I have met some people who are totally convinced that EVERYONE will be saved, ultimately. Paul does mention in Romans 14:11 and in Philippians 2:11 that "EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue shall confess" that Jesus Christ is Lord. They were implying that in the end, all will confess Jesus Christ is Lord and will be saved. If the use of those two verses are out of context, please correct me.
avatar
methodikal
Admin

Posts : 97
Join date : 2009-01-23
Age : 35
Location : San Jose, CA

View user profile http://ccccollegetalk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  Mark on Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:24 am

Well I don't agree with those people that say that everyone is saved. Those that choose to reject and not believe that Jesus Christ is our lord and savior will go to hell, the Bible definitely says that in many scriptures. I guess for me I can only lean towards one way but never really know the real answer. Only God will truly know.

Oh and Matt those scriptures are being used out of context. Let me ready it some more and get back to you but from what I read they are being used out of context.
avatar
Mark

Posts : 33
Join date : 2009-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  joshcalu on Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:25 am

methodikal wrote:
Mark wrote:...God choose us and it was his choice to save us. So can we also say that God either way can do what he wants because he is God. I don't believe that this contradicts the Bible because we found scriptures that show that he is a Graceful God. We can refer back to the infant topic and apply what we concluded in that topic to this. In the end God will do the right thing and it is through God's Grace that those who have never heard about God are still saved? I am so confused guys. scratch

But there is one distinct trait that grown ups have that babies dont. A developed mind. Not brain, but mind. They are conscious of what is right and wrong. Babies dont have that consciousness yet. I believe that is why God has mercy on the babies.

On another note, I do see what you are saying Mark. I have met some people who are totally convinced that EVERYONE will be saved, ultimately. Paul does mention in Romans 14:11 and in Philippians 2:11 that "EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue shall confess" that Jesus Christ is Lord. They were implying that in the end, all will confess Jesus Christ is Lord and will be saved. If the use of those two verses are out of context, please correct me.

Everyone will appear before the Lord, but not everyone will make it to Heaven. Every tongue confesses not here on Earth but rather when judgment day passes. Even those in Hell will acknowledge that God is God. Yes? No? Correct if necessary...

joshcalu

Posts : 25
Join date : 2009-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  methodikal on Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:33 am

Let me clarify one thing so that we are not confused by what I am trying to say...i'm gna edit what I said...

methodikal wrote:
On another note, I do see what you are saying Mark. I have met some people who are totally convinced that EVERYONE will be saved, ultimately. Paul does mention in Romans 14:11 and in Philippians 2:11 that "EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue shall confess" that Jesus Christ is Lord. They (The people I met, not Paul) were implying that in the end, all will confess Jesus Christ is Lord and will be saved. If the use of those two verses are out of context, please correct me.
avatar
methodikal
Admin

Posts : 97
Join date : 2009-01-23
Age : 35
Location : San Jose, CA

View user profile http://ccccollegetalk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  CLER on Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:23 pm

joshcalu wrote:
methodikal wrote:
Mark wrote:...God choose us and it was his choice to save us. So can we also say that God either way can do what he wants because he is God. I don't believe that this contradicts the Bible because we found scriptures that show that he is a Graceful God. We can refer back to the infant topic and apply what we concluded in that topic to this. In the end God will do the right thing and it is through God's Grace that those who have never heard about God are still saved? I am so confused guys. scratch

But there is one distinct trait that grown ups have that babies dont. A developed mind. Not brain, but mind. They are conscious of what is right and wrong. Babies dont have that consciousness yet. I believe that is why God has mercy on the babies.

On another note, I do see what you are saying Mark. I have met some people who are totally convinced that EVERYONE will be saved, ultimately. Paul does mention in Romans 14:11 and in Philippians 2:11 that "EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue shall confess" that Jesus Christ is Lord. They were implying that in the end, all will confess Jesus Christ is Lord and will be saved. If the use of those two verses are out of context, please correct me.

Everyone will appear before the Lord, but not everyone will make it to Heaven. Every tongue confesses not here on Earth but rather when judgment day passes. Even those in Hell will acknowledge that God is God. Yes? No? Correct if necessary...

I haven't looked into it yet, but few questions to better understand the context of the Philippians verses that were quoted... who was Paul talking to? What was the previous verses talking about? What were the verses after about?

CLER

Posts : 50
Join date : 2009-01-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  KuyaAirl on Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:49 pm

CLER wrote:
joshcalu wrote:
methodikal wrote:
Mark wrote:...God choose us and it was his choice to save us. So can we also say that God either way can do what he wants because he is God. I don't believe that this contradicts the Bible because we found scriptures that show that he is a Graceful God. We can refer back to the infant topic and apply what we concluded in that topic to this. In the end God will do the right thing and it is through God's Grace that those who have never heard about God are still saved? I am so confused guys. scratch

But there is one distinct trait that grown ups have that babies dont. A developed mind. Not brain, but mind. They are conscious of what is right and wrong. Babies dont have that consciousness yet. I believe that is why God has mercy on the babies.

On another note, I do see what you are saying Mark. I have met some people who are totally convinced that EVERYONE will be saved, ultimately. Paul does mention in Romans 14:11 and in Philippians 2:11 that "EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue shall confess" that Jesus Christ is Lord. They were implying that in the end, all will confess Jesus Christ is Lord and will be saved. If the use of those two verses are out of context, please correct me.

Everyone will appear before the Lord, but not everyone will make it to Heaven. Every tongue confesses not here on Earth but rather when judgment day passes. Even those in Hell will acknowledge that God is God. Yes? No? Correct if necessary...

I haven't looked into it yet, but few questions to better understand the context of the Philippians verses that were quoted... who was Paul talking to? What was the previous verses talking about? What were the verses after about?


Phil 2: 1-11

If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy,
2
complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing.
3
Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves,
4
each looking out not for his own interests, but (also) everyone for those of others.
5
Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, 2
6
Who, 3 though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. 4
7
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; 5 and found human in appearance,
8
he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. 6
9
Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name 7 that is above every name,
10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, 8 of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.
12


As far AS EVERYONE BEING SAVED in the end..I disagree...First of all a JUdgment is going to take place where unbelievers will be judged by Christ and sent to the Lake of Fire at the Great WHite Throne Judgment(Rev20).....If everyone will be saved at the end, then why is there a judgment in the future..Although it is God's will that none should perish but that all should come to repentance(2Peter 3:9)...as far as everyone being saved at the end, the depravity of the human heart will not allow that to happen and God respects the freewill of Man

And as far as the passage above...When it says Every knee shall bow, the reason being is not because everyone will be saved and will bow due to that but because of the Name of Jesus...the authority of that Name..and The Authority of His Person...He's been Exalted at God's Right Hand..His Name has been made the highest name by God the Father......regardless of whether one is saved or not..ALL Will bow to JEsus ..either out of love for the savior and by grace, or because of judgment and they have no choice.... as Paul Washer puts it "Or Because their Kneecaps have been broken by the One who rules with a ROD OF IRON" ..plus the context of chapter 2 talks about humility and for us to have the mind of Christ, who became a servant..and because He became a servant and died..God highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above all...The passage talks about how we shouldnt have self agendas but to be a servant to others and to think about others rather than ourselves
avatar
KuyaAirl

Posts : 42
Join date : 2009-01-27
Age : 31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  Rodel on Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:15 pm

Good post Kuya Earl!

But to add up to the topic.... for those who have never heard of the gospel and died, are they saved because they didn't have the chance to hear the gospel? Who knows? But according to Romans 1:18-20, I don't think we have any excuse for one to say, "I didn't know there was a Holy God" (just as Mawi posted). The need for salvation is loud and clear.

And as for a baby, I don't know how a baby can understand that or know physically between his right hand and left hand.
avatar
Rodel

Posts : 26
Join date : 2009-01-25
Age : 36

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Those who never hear God's word or hears about him.

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum