Catholic Stereotypes

Mawi wrote:Whoa whoa.. i didn't mean to cause any drama. just wanted to learn, being curious about things.

Dont worry Mawi....It was a legit question...a question that you have the right to ask about

imma play moderator for a little bit

let's not forget to extend grace to one another in this space guys.. i think that choosing to post/respond something in this forum means that we're open to hearing support as well as disagreements.. this isn't easy and actually a very vulnerable thing to do, so let's continue to be gracious to each other since we're all trying to learn together

if any personal offenses happen, let's be quick to resolve both within and outside of this forum.. doesn't necessarily mean we have to all agree, but i think mature conversations can only happen if we're confident about where we're coming from but also willing to hear out other sides of the discussion..

very interesting and significant topic to address though.. i'll respond soon with my thoughts but just wanted to encourage us to keep this space safe so that other folks will also feel free to respond.. yay peace!

KuyaAirl wrote:
The Doctrine of Hell and Purgatory?

The Doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ?

Salvation by grace or by works?

Mary a Mediatrix or not?

The Eucharist and Transubstiantion

dude! you pretty much listed what i wanted to know too! especially about transubstantiation vs. consubstantion

I've had a conversation, via PM, with a very dedicated catholic about a year and a half ago. We never really got to finish our conversation and fully answer all my questions. Here's some of his answers to some of my questions, which you can probably guess from what he wrote. I don't want to post the whole convo since it'll take up a lot of space. These are direct quotes from him:

Well, to be more precise, we do go to confession seeking forgiveness. When we confess our sins to the priest, God uses the priest as His instrument of forgiveness. God is still the first cause of the forgiveness. Since Catholics believe that God has made His priests the instruments of His forgiveness, it follows that when we come to these priests, we will receive the grace that has been made available to all mankind (not just the High Priests once a year).

Note that "intercession" just means "praying for someone." Paul urged that intercession be made for all men (cf. 1 Tim 2:1). When we "pray" to the saints, we are simply asking them to fulfill Paul's request.

The prayers were your penance. When we sin, we don't just wound our relationship with God. We also wound the Body, since we are all united in Christ. So, when we receive forgiveness, we are straight with God again, but we still have to rectify the harm we caused to our brothers and sisters (and really to the whole created order). That's what penance does.

It's easier to see the effectiveness of penance when it's fitted to the sin you commit. So, if you confess that you stole from your brother, you would be forgiven and then asked, as your penance, to return what you stole. It's just the right thing to do, and it undoes what was done by your sin. What's great about confession and penance is that it completely erases sin, both it's effect on your own soul and it's effect on the Body.

However unfitting they may appear, prayers do work just as well. Just as sin and evil works do harm to the Body, good works motivated by grace and charity build it back up again. It's laudable to pray, and pious prayers like the "Our Father" and the "Hail Mary" can in fact build the Body back up again.

The Catholic Church is the only Church that can find evidence of all of it's teachings in the testimony of Christians from the very beginning. To see this for yourself, start here and just go through the list.

To be "born again" is to be regenerated, or made a new creation. We do believe in being born again, and in the necessity of it. This takes place first through Baptism, and subsequently through the Sacrament of Confession.

However, we don't believe that once you're "born again," you're set. We don't believe in "once saved always saved." We hold, as the Bible teaches, that a man can lose his salvation, or reject the grace he once accepted. Salvation ultimately comes through perseverence, through continuing in the life of grace and through returning to that life of grace whenever we fall from it.

maybe you can add on to these responses as well Matt and see if dude was representing Catholics fairly. Seems like he is though, he's very well versed in doctrine when I spoke to him.

Thanks yo!

Having been in a bunch of forums for the past 8+ years, if you really feel the need to get at someone regarding a personal matter... PM would be the best way to do it, and not out in the open for everyone to see. Just something experience has taught me.

jeffrocks wrote:
maybe you can add on to these responses as well Matt and see if dude was representing Catholics fairly. Seems like he is though, he's very well versed in doctrine when I spoke to him.

Thanks yo!

Uh, i'm not a Catholic expert, but i'll ask Audrey to read his responses and see what she has to say. From the looks of it though, i do agree w/ you and his knowledge on the Catholic doctrine...

methodikal wrote:

jeffrocks wrote:
maybe you can add on to these responses as well Matt and see if dude was representing Catholics fairly. Seems like he is though, he's very well versed in doctrine when I spoke to him.

Thanks yo!

Uh, i'm not a Catholic expert, but i'll ask Audrey to read his responses and see what she has to say. From the looks of it though, i do agree w/ you and his knowledge on the Catholic doctrine...

oh i meant to add on to what you were going to ask Audrey from Earl's post. My fault, should've made it more cler'er (hehe)

that catholic.com page is a good resource. Lots of info there. Gotta read up on it more. Imputed righteousness vs. infused righteousness might be another big distinction between protestants and Catholics too.

Hey guys! Sorry, for the late post...school and work makes you so tired sometimes. Anyway, there were a lot of Catholic doctrines that were listed that you guys wanted me to go over...but I'll just take the first one and we can discuss any questions/concerns anyone has before moving on to the next topic. This way, we can go over everything and not have to jump back and forth.

So this is what the Catholic Church teaches about Hell and Purgatory...
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), which is a compilation of the official teachings of the Catholic Church that followed the 2nd Vatican Ecumenical Council, states that Hell is real and when a person dies in a state of mortal sin, without repenting and accepting God's love, descends into Hell where their is eternal separation from God, and thus suffers (CCC, 1033-1037). Purgatory, on the other hand, is a name given to a final purification stage in which those who die in God's favor but still have the stain of sin on them must go through before they can enter Heaven (CCC, 1030-1032). Basically, at death, a person's soul goes to Heaven if completely fit; to Purgatory, if not quite fit for Heaven, but not worthy of condemnation; or to Hell, if completely unfit for Heaven. Purgatory is temporary and souls who are in this stage are awaiting entrance into Heaven.

From the Bible...
There are some basic principles as to why having this purification state makes sense.

"For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun. So David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the Lord.' And Nathan said to David, 'The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die" (2 Sam 12:13-18, NKJV)
1.) There is punishment for sin even after someone has received forgiveness. David committed something that greatly displeased God but his sin was "put away." However, even after this fact, God took his son to punish him for what he did.

"Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27, NIV).
2.) This verse is talking about the new Jerusalem (Heaven) and that nothing unclean will enter it.

"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48, NKJV).
3.) Have to be perfect in order to enter Heaven.

"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect" (Hebrews 12:22-23, NIV).
4.) There is a way, a process in which spirits of righteous men are made perfect. So even righteous people need to be perfected because you must be perfect and unclean to enter Heaven (principles 2 & 3).

"His work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames" (1 Corinthians 3:13-15, NIV)
5.) “Day” = judgement day; “will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames”...where is this place that a man, after he dies, suffers loss through fire but is still saved?; Hell? Once in Hell don’t get out. Heaven? There is no suffering in heaven. Thus, there is a place other than Heaven and Hell...St. Paul describes it as someone running from flames...not quite Hell and definitely not Heaven.
Ok, getting kinda lengthy...I'll just state these last verses =)
Matthew 12:32, 18:32-35
6.) “will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come”…implies that there is forgiveness in the age to come. Where can you go to be forgiven in the age to come? Heaven? You don’t need forgiveness. Hell? There is no forgiveness.
Where can you go, that is like jail until you have paid your debt?

There are other verses but these are the main ones. Yes, it's true that the actual word "Purgatory" is not found in the Bible. But neither are "Trinity" or "Incarnation" and yet every Christian receives these doctrines without hesitation. If you guys want to read more about Purgatory, or any other topic, catholic.com and ewtn.com are wonderful websites!
javascript:emoticonp('') <-- hahaha...just thought it was funny!

Peace and love,
Audrey

Oh..and Jeff, your friend's pretty much got it!
<-- I love these things!!

I'll be honest. This is really different from what I anticipated. But this is a chance for me to learn Catholic beliefs and doctrines as I was never exposed much to it.

Thanks for sharing Audrey!

Thank you for posting this Audrey! I want to first apologize to you if my post offended you. A lot of the verses you quoted were really great and I read all them. I read the whole chapter that each verse was in. There are just so many questions that I have and I don't think I can fully express them through words. Personally I just don't see the Bible verses that were quoted to even state or imply of a "Purgatory." This is just so tough to explain what my thoughts are through words so I'm not even going to try. If you guys ever want to meet in person and discuss anything that we have questions about then I'm all for it. These very complicated topics are just so big to be able to respond in words. But definitely a great topic for me to learn even more about the word of God.

First and foremost, I want to THANK YOU ALL so much for welcoming me at Crossroads. This February will be my very first year in Crossroads. It took nearly a decade for God to answer my prayer/s: of finding a Christ-centered church that lives and breathes the Truth about Jesus.

I would like to share my thoughts about the Catholic stereotypes... but before I continue, I would like to share more about myself so you would understand my stand on this matter.

I was born in the Philippines, in a small province, following generations after generations of the Traditional Catholic practice. My mother is Protestant and my father is Catholic. I have a brother and a sister. We lived under my father's wing and practice as well as with the guidance of a very loving catholic grandmother. We were raised in the traditional catholic practice and educated in a prestigious catholic school. Ofcourse, following the tradition of my father's family, me and my sister graduated in an all-girl's catholic school / convent of the Assumption. We have graciously served our church and our family.

I grew up surrounded by beautiful, loving and very Christ-like catholic friends and families. I respect them with all my heart but there's always certain practices that neither I nor they could explain to me as clear as what the bible could tell me (and there's no other truth besides the Word of God.) Hmmm.. for those who are still in school, have you checked your Report/Grade card lately? Well, growing up, the subject of Religion is a major subject in school. We study the bible, the catholic doctrines and practices all at the same time but it seems with more focus on the practices. The goal is to stay with tradition. It has been like that since the dark ages maybe. OK, what I am trying to say is that I was a good-hearted practicing catholic. My friends and families are still practicing catholics. They are devoted to the church, the family and the community and are very good people. I have great love and respect for them.

So back to the main topics of Catholicism:

**Idols/Statues/Pictures**
-- Catholics use pictures and statues to basically remind them of their faith. This all dates back to I believe during the early part of the Rennaisance, wherein the people were straying away from the church. Therefore, the church hired artists to build statues and beautify the church until people were encouraged to go to discover church again. Well, it seemed to work. People did come, they learned the word and practices and stayed with the church. However, there are a lot of catholics that believe that certain statues or pictures do more than being a mere visual reminder. A lot of catholics believe in the miracles that a statue or pictures can produce---Whether it is the bleeding statue, the crying picture, or images appearing in trees or rocks or the wall in a house. Even in church, when they receive some sort of relic, they would even encourage the travel of that relic from one family to another within the church so it will bless the home. A statue or relic --respectable but creepy (as experienced.) I'm sure you've heard of these before. Upon hearing or seeing these things, catholics become quickly overwhelmed and usually begin praying to 'it,' to the point of seriously getting so distracted when really, the main focus of these praises should be all for Jesus.


**MARY**
-- Practicing catholics don't believe Mary is God. The moment Mary said her humble "YES!" to God, she became a mother. What is being a mother? Does it have to be by blood to become a mother (or father?) Well, in the case of Mary. Mary had the freewill to abort the child if she wanted to save her image but she didn't. She gave birth and chose to be a mother and take care of Jesus with her utmost love and devotion. In return Jesus loved and respected her as well. (I do too!) Overall, Mary is a woman that catholics respect so much because she has always chosen to say YES to God. On the other hand, there are times when practicing catholics put more time praying for Mary's help instead of praying directly to Jesus. Maybe it's a human instinct of finding comfort in a mother? Well, there are those that are serious Marians-- followers of Mary that clearly overshadows JC. But truly, practicing Catholics don't believe Mary is God.


**SINS/FORGIVENESS**
-- Practicing catholics know that Jesus died on the cross, therefore our sins are forgiven. They know that it is God's grace and love that will save them. Since, sinning happens over and over again, the catholic church is there to help as well. Here's the catholic teaching: the church has the power to forgive all sins in the Sacrament of Penance, as long as the person is truly very sorry for his/her sins and is willing to ask for forgiveness. Sins are forgiven by absolution. Guess who has the power to do so? The priest, as authorized by the church. For those of you reading this, don't judge or be angry or lose respect for them, this is really the catholic practice done for so many centuries. Practicing catholics know that in the end, God has power over their lives, and priests are great friends who choose to devote their lives to God and the church so they can guide people to be closer to God.


Again, all I have is love and respect for my catholic friends and family, for I was one before. God has chosen this path for me for He knows what's in my heart and He knows what works for my spirit. I am still praying that they will accept me and respect me as much as I respect them.

Christel

Thank you Baudz and Christel for posting!! If you two have any questions about "Protestant" or "Born Again" practices, please ask away, i'm sure everyone here would love to address them for you...

Mark, I would love to discuss matters of the faith with you, or anyone else. I absolutely am not offended and just see this as an opportunity to learn more about other practices. Thank you for your openness and willingness to learn more about Catholicism. In the end, there is but one God, whom I believe all Christians love and worship, but I hope to learn more about your doctrines/faith as much as I hope to share mine with you. Call me anytime! Or better yet...let's have coffee so we can talk in person! =)

Hey, anyone want to start a post in the Gathering? Maybe we can have a meet/greet to learn more about each others practice...or maybe one of the College/Career leaders can make it a topic for one of our upcoming Friday nights...Leaders

Ahh, thanks to audrey and christel! I'm finally starting to understand it more. this thread went from madness to yay! hahaha.

Definitely down for a meeting or gathering. Just let me know when and where!

Sweet!! I'll let you know when I'm free